Howdy! And a question! :)

[soazbinder]

Just do what I did and skip the testing all togather.  Call up your insurance provider...and ask them to send you a letter stating that you have "collector's insurance" on this rig.  Then you are exempt from emmissions all togather.    Won't cost you any extra or anything.  In fact, there is an entire forum on this site that covers this.  I'd go that route if I were you, much easier to get it fixed right away. 

 


Or just do what I did and move to a town where there is no emission testing/inspections.  Its more legal too.

[wyndfire]

I've got an auto trans, and the A/C is dead right now. I'm going to work on the timing tonight after dark when it cools off a bit. (And by "a bit" I mean, it will be 95 instead of 110!) 

Ok, I had to drive down to my insurance agent this morning to get the insurance all squared away, and noted the RPM's. I idle at 1000. That seems normal to me. Am I wrong?

I think tht the slushbox idle speed is 2-300 rpm higher than with a manual tranny.  I know 700rpm is the factory setting for manual trans with no A/C, but it is supposed to be higher for auto and even 1-200 more for auto with A/C.  I can't remember now, I can look it up in the service manual later. 
That's retarded that the mechanic will not work on a carb engine, they are so easy.  That is even more messed up that they told you to kill your subaru brat.  Even if it was a ford pinto, what if that was your first car, had memories or sentimental value, etc.  I don't know about this mechanic,  or any mechanic when it comes to IH.  I only trust myself and other IH folk to work on my junk.

[a4x4girl]

Most of us all live in the valley so we're all suffering with you...

I've got an auto trans, and the A/C is dead right now. I'm going to work on the timing tonight after dark when it cools off a bit. (And by "a bit" I mean, it will be 95 instead of 110!) 

Ok, I had to drive down to my insurance agent this morning to get the insurance all squared away, and noted the RPM's. I idle at 1000. That seems normal to me. Am I wrong?

I think tht the slushbox idle speed is 2-300 rpm higher than with a manual tranny.  I know 700rpm is the factory setting for manual trans with no A/C, but it is supposed to be higher for auto and even 1-200 more for auto with A/C.  I can't remember now, I can look it up in the service manual later. 
That's retarded that the mechanic will not work on a carb engine, they are so easy.  That is even more messed up that they told you to kill your subaru brat.  Even if it was a ford pinto, what if that was your first car, had memories or sentimental value, etc.  I don't know about this mechanic,  or any mechanic when it comes to IH.  I only trust myself and other IH folk to work on my junk.

[wyndfire]

Ok, I see the timing marks - which side of the scale is "before" and which is "after"? Theres a zero in the middle. The timing, as is, without my doing anything to it is showing at the "5" towards the passenger side.

[a4x4girl]

Do you still have a stock points system in your distributor?  

Ok, I see the timing marks - which side of the scale is "before" and which is "after"? Theres a zero in the middle. The timing, as is, without my doing anything to it is showing at the "5" towards the passenger side.

[wyndfire]

I dont know what that means? 

I'm assuming the side of the scale that goes to 20 is advanced (BTDC). Before we made any changes, the timing was at about 3 BTDC. An earlier post here suggested the timing should be retarded to around 7 BTDC, but I was already below that. Soooo, I set it to 0.

I changed the air filter, too. And while it was warming up to read the timing, we verified that the choke was opening fully.

I havent done anything with the idle mix/speed or air intake screws. I am thinking I may run it through emissions and see how it goes again. If it fails, I'll mess with the idle. Or rebuild the carb. Or sacrifice a chicken to the Elder Gods. Whatever.

Do you still have a stock points system in your distributor?  

Ok, I see the timing marks - which side of the scale is "before" and which is "after"? Theres a zero in the middle. The timing, as is, without my doing anything to it is showing at the "5" towards the passenger side.

[a4x4girl]

It would make a bit of difference on where your timing would be set at and how it runs to get through emissions.  The contact points are located inside the distributor and should be in decent condition for your truck to be running within emission "specs" - If you've switched over to electronic ignition (Pertronix...), the timing may need to be adjusted to compensate.

I've gone through this crap with all of which you are speaking about. So I can tell you now, sacrifices don't work to the IH "gods" or any other "god" for that matter.  Go through your truck, change wires, plugs, cap, rotor, points (if you have them - you may want to check), filter, add fuel cleaner, check (rebuild if you want to) carb...and most importantly - WASH YOUR WINDOWS and DON'T FORGET TO PAINT ANYTHING THAT YOU PUT ON YOUR TRUCK! At least that's what these guys tell me...can't see through mud. 

We'll see you at the meeting.

~Teresa

I dont know what that means? 

I'm assuming the side of the scale that goes to 20 is advanced (BTDC). Before we made any changes, the timing was at about 3 BTDC. An earlier post here suggested the timing should be retarded to around 7 BTDC, but I was already below that. Soooo, I set it to 0.

I changed the air filter, too. And while it was warming up to read the timing, we verified that the choke was opening fully.

I havent done anything with the idle mix/speed or air intake screws. I am thinking I may run it through emissions and see how it goes again. If it fails, I'll mess with the idle. Or rebuild the carb. Or sacrifice a chicken to the Elder Gods. Whatever.

Do you still have a stock points system in your distributor?  

Ok, I see the timing marks - which side of the scale is "before" and which is "after"? Theres a zero in the middle. The timing, as is, without my doing anything to it is showing at the "5" towards the passenger side.

[76scoutII]

Most of us all live in the valley so we're all suffering with you...

Yeah, I get to walk around on rooftops to measure windows in that 115 degree heat, I think it goes up to 125-130 when you are on a rooftop made of ceramic tiles.  Ugh, I can't wait for sept-oct, but I am seriously not complaining, I love my job and am happy I found it.  I used to be stuck in the heat at the same house all or most of the day when I was an installer, so selling/bidding jobs is much nicer, and I got a company truck with A/C to cool off between appointments!

ok, as for timing, I think that setting it to 0 eg for emissions purposes may help, but I also agree with teresa, you have to get a feeler guage [like 3 bucks] and then check the points gap.  0.016 thousandths for resetting gap on old existing points, and 0.019 thousandths for gap on new points.  I can't believe I still remember that, I guess it gets burned in your memory after you mess with it 500 times.  I am glad I went to  pertronix, so much less hassle, and better starts in the morning.

[wyndfire]

2nd emissions test - WORSE than the 1st! Back to the garage....

[niroe]

I wouldn't adjust anything on the carb at this point. When you adjusted the timing did you disconnect the vacuum advance from the dirtributor and plug off the vacuum line? If all you did was adjust the timing one way and it got worse go back the other way. But really you should have a vacuum gauge hooked to the manifold and adjust until you get the highest vacuum reading. If you are having issues with making adjustment on the carb, find a shop that can do the carb rebuild and adjust it using the proper equipment. It may cost more then you want but they have the tools to do it properly.

[wyndfire]

Yeah, I disconnected the vacumm advance. And I have a vacuum gauge.

I wouldn't adjust anything on the carb at this point. When you adjusted the timing did you disconnect the vacuum advance from the dirtributor and plug off the vacuum line? If all you did was adjust the timing one way and it got worse go back the other way. But really you should have a vacuum gauge hooked to the manifold and adjust until you get the highest vacuum reading. If you are having issues with making adjustment on the carb, find a shop that can do the carb rebuild and adjust it using the proper equipment. It may cost more then you want but they have the tools to do it properly.

[blackr_ah64d]

Did you read my comment about how to NOT have to do emissions?  You are wasting your time and money.  MUCH easier to just avoid it all togather by telling them you have "collector's" insurance.  Won't cost you a penny more.  Then you can just worry about making your scout run right, and forget the dumb stuff! 

2nd emissions test - WORSE than the 1st! Back to the garage....

[Allan]

Observations about the conversation.

1. With AC, the idle setting should not change. 650 rpms is about right, in drive. It should not drop much when you change from park/neutral to Drive.
2. 1000 rpm idle will damage your transmission eventually. If it doesn't, it will wreak havoc on your u-joints. Clunk is not your friend.
3. Changing the timing will effect the idle speed. Changing the idle speed will effect the timing. The timing automatically mechanically advances with higher rpm, and that starts happening as soon as the distributor starts to spin. Idle first, then timing, then idle, then timing, so that the timing AT THE TARGET RPM is reached. When you give the engine gas, the vacuum advance port (power valve) opens, which advances the timing. The purpose of ported vacuum advance is to pass emissions testing. That is the primary reason for porting the vacuum advance. Prior to the smog laws, the vacuum advance ran off of the intake manifold. The purpose of the vacuum advance is to retard the timing when the engine is under load. This prevents "pinging" also called "knock" in the engine. The spec for idle timing is left over from the old, old, olden days.
4. The idle adjust, then timing adjust, etc is also how you adjust the C and D idle mixture screws.
5. Points are not really all that critical most of the time, but the closer you get them to perfect, the longer they are likely to stay in spec. Ball park is good, and that's what .016" will get you.  Accurate setting is done with a DWELL meter. DWELL is how long the points are closed between openings. 30 degrees is normal for any V8 with points. That's 2/3 closed, 1/3 open.
You need a sniffer to tell if it's right if you have to go through testing. Running the "best way possible" is not he same as "with the lowest emissions." It simply doesn't work that way on a carb'd engine.

[wyndfire]

I did see your comment. I'd like to drive my Scout - maybe not as a "daily driver" but for things other than just club outings and shows. Also, I dont see it as a waste of money to ensure that my vehicle passes emissions. Thanks for the tip though.

Did you read my comment about how to NOT have to do emissions?  You are wasting your time and money.  MUCH easier to just avoid it all togather by telling them you have "collector's" insurance.  Won't cost you a penny more.  Then you can just worry about making your scout run right, and forget the dumb stuff! 

2nd emissions test - WORSE than the 1st! Back to the garage....

[wyndfire]

Thanks for all the info! I'm doing some more research on the idle/timing while I wait for some new parts to be delivered this week. I also have looked and do not have points in the distributor - its electronic.

Thanks!

Observations about the conversation.

1. With AC, the idle setting should not change. 650 rpms is about right, in drive. It should not drop much when you change from park/neutral to Drive.
2. 1000 rpm idle will damage your transmission eventually. If it doesn't, it will wreak havoc on your u-joints. Clunk is not your friend.
3. Changing the timing will effect the idle speed. Changing the idle speed will effect the timing. The timing automatically mechanically advances with higher rpm, and that starts happening as soon as the distributor starts to spin. Idle first, then timing, then idle, then timing, so that the timing AT THE TARGET RPM is reached. When you give the engine gas, the vacuum advance port (power valve) opens, which advances the timing. The purpose of ported vacuum advance is to pass emissions testing. That is the primary reason for porting the vacuum advance. Prior to the smog laws, the vacuum advance ran off of the intake manifold. The purpose of the vacuum advance is to retard the timing when the engine is under load. This prevents "pinging" also called "knock" in the engine. The spec for idle timing is left over from the old, old, olden days.
4. The idle adjust, then timing adjust, etc is also how you adjust the C and D idle mixture screws.
5. Points are not really all that critical most of the time, but the closer you get them to perfect, the longer they are likely to stay in spec. Ball park is good, and that's what .016" will get you.  Accurate setting is done with a DWELL meter. DWELL is how long the points are closed between openings. 30 degrees is normal for any V8 with points. That's 2/3 closed, 1/3 open.
You need a sniffer to tell if it's right if you have to go through testing. Running the "best way possible" is not he same as "with the lowest emissions." It simply doesn't work that way on a carb'd engine.

[WR R jerry]

Here's a place that has worked for me: Emissions Express  23rd Ave. North of Peoria. They can usually get it thru for about $60. You will have to pay to test again as you only get one free re-test
Jerry

[blackr_ah64d]

I guess I didn't finish the full thought on the matter. You can still drive it all you want... there is NO mileage limits.  I run mine up and down the road all the time.  You'll still get a regular plate to put on it and everything. The thing about going through emmissions, once you have your truck setup to pass, it's not running nearly as good as it could be.  I understand you want your scout to be running the best that it can just like most of us.  Thus is the primary reason to avoid the trouble of setting it up for emmissions, then putting it back where it runs the best at.  I'm sure mine wouldn't pass, but it runs great how its setup.     

I did see your comment. I'd like to drive my Scout - maybe not as a "daily driver" but for things other than just club outings and shows. Also, I dont see it as a waste of money to ensure that my vehicle passes emissions. Thanks for the tip though.

Did you read my comment about how to NOT have to do emissions?  You are wasting your time and money.  MUCH easier to just avoid it all togather by telling them you have "collector's" insurance.  Won't cost you a penny more.  Then you can just worry about making your scout run right, and forget the dumb stuff! 

2nd emissions test - WORSE than the 1st! Back to the garage....

[Lowell]

I seem to recall that adding alcohol to the gas tank helped pass emmisions but I don't remember the details.

[a4x4girl]

Racing fuel works too, though a bit more expensive...

I seem to recall that adding alcohol to the gas tank helped pass emmisions but I don't remember the details.

[blackr_ah64d]

There you go.  Go get you a few gallons of 100LL (Avgas) from the airport.  Most small FBO's will sell it to you.

Racing fuel works too, though a bit more expensive...

I seem to recall that adding alcohol to the gas tank helped pass emmisions but I don't remember the details.

[76scoutII]

I guess I didn't finish the full thought on the matter. You can still drive it all you want... there is NO mileage limits.  I run mine up and down the road all the time.  You'll still get a regular plate to put on it and everything. The thing about going through emmissions, once you have your truck setup to pass, it's not running nearly as good as it could be.  I understand you want your scout to be running the best that it can just like most of us.  Thus is the primary reason to avoid the trouble of setting it up for emmissions, then putting it back where it runs the best at.  I'm sure mine wouldn't pass, but it runs great how its setup.     

I did see your comment. I'd like to drive my Scout - maybe not as a "daily driver" but for things other than just club outings and shows. Also, I dont see it as a waste of money to ensure that my vehicle passes emissions. Thanks for the tip though.

Did you read my comment about how to NOT have to do emissions?  You are wasting your time and money.  MUCH easier to just avoid it all togather by telling them you have "collector's" insurance.  Won't cost you a penny more.  Then you can just worry about making your scout run right, and forget the dumb stuff! 

2nd emissions test - WORSE than the 1st! Back to the garage....

Hey blackr_ah64d, could you give me a little more info on what you did to become exempt from emissions??  I have heard about this before, that you insure it with a different type of policy that allows you to set the value of the vehicle, and not by the kelly blue book value.    What I wanted to ask was, do you have to pay more on the premium, and do you have to have comprehensive/collision [full coverage] or just liability coverage?  Is this something offered by the large insurers, ike geico, progressive, allstate, etc??  I am with you on the statements about how getting it running well to pass emissions is not truely the BEST optimum settings for the engine and carb to be perfectly tuned.  Anyways, sorry to hijack the thread, but if it was 20 a month more on the insurance, I almost would still do it just so i dont have to deal with it every year.

[Lowell]

I'm going through this right now with American Collectors Insurance from Geico.  Insurance rate was very resonable.  I'm waiting for my Declaration of collectible insurance from them before I go get plates and registration that doesn't require emisions.. I am restricted to its use for my "hobby" only.  I take that to mean I can use it for my Scout club hobby but not use it as a daily driver. It must be garaged and cannot be used  to tow a trailer.  This is all fine for my intended purpose but may not work for others.  Their phone number if you want to see what they can do:
(866) 540-2336.

[blackr_ah64d]

My insurance is through American Family.  The way it was explained to me, most insurance agencies are the same on this.  I only have liability on my rig, and there is NO mileage limitations.  In fact, they set it up to be my "primary" driver, because it saved me even more money (other truck is a 07 dodge ram 4x4...hemi).    Basically, the county requires all vehicals to have emmissions, UNLESS it has "collectors insurance".  There is no difference between collectors insurance, and anything else.  Now if you have "historic" insurance, thats another animal there.  Historic insurance puts all sorts of limitations on a vehical (I'd have to research for all the details on this) but I believe its due to tax exemptions etc...can't recall right now.  Anyhow, all I had to do was have my insurance guy fax the dmv a letter stating that I had "collectors" insurance, and they waived the emmissions.  I also had him send me a copy so I could take it in...just in case dmv lost theirs.  Very basic generic letter.  He says he uses them all the time.  It's a joke really.  Anything over 25yrs old can get out of emmissions with a letter from their insurance agent.  If your agency doesn't offer this, check with American Family, they were cheaper for me than any other insurance agency.  I shop around bout once a year too.  Important to go where the deals are.    Let me know if this didn't cover all your questions.   


[/quote]
Hey blackr_ah64d, could you give me a little more info on what you did to become exempt from emissions??  I have heard about this before, that you insure it with a different type of policy that allows you to set the value of the vehicle, and not by the kelly blue book value.    What I wanted to ask was, do you have to pay more on the premium, and do you have to have comprehensive/collision [full coverage] or just liability coverage?  Is this something offered by the large insurers, ike geico, progressive, allstate, etc??  I am with you on the statements about how getting it running well to pass emissions is not truely the BEST optimum settings for the engine and carb to be perfectly tuned.  Anyways, sorry to hijack the thread, but if it was 20 a month more on the insurance, I almost would still do it just so i dont have to deal with it every year.
[/quote]